Londoners’ Safety

Steve O'Connell: Have Londoners been safer in this Mayoral term?

Sadiq Khan: Thank you. Chair, can I just check with Steve this is for me?

Steve O’Connell: Yes, initially from you, Mr Mayor, because it is asking about your record, please.

Sadiq Khan: Sure. When I became Mayor, violence had been rising across the country, including London, since 2014 and serious youth violence since 2012. We are by no means complacent but are now seeing key indicators of violence reducing in London. Pre‑COVID, the number of victims of knife crime with injury aged under 25 had fallen by a quarter. Homicides were also down. Since I became Mayor, burglary offences have reduced, violence with injury has reduced, youth violence has reduced and gun crime has reduced.
Throughout my mayoralty, I have been tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. Against a backdrop of Government cuts, I have invested record amounts in policing from City Hall by diverting business rates and taking the difficult decision to increase council tax to support this vital work. This has funded a new dedicated Violent Crime Task Force with nearly 300 police officers focused on the areas worst affected while also improving diversity amongst officers and restoring neighbourhood policing. There is also a new 600‑officer‑plus Violence Suppression Unit across our city.
Enforcement, though, only suppresses violence rather than addressing its causes, so we have established England’s first VRU to tackle the root causes of crime. We have also invested nearly £4million, as you have heard, in the Rescue and Response programme, reducing involvement amongst those referred to the programme by 60%.
The reality is that the Government cuts to the police and preventative services have made it much harder. Since 2013/14, the MPS has been forced to deliver almost £900million in savings, resulting in officer numbers falling to below 30,000 in mid‑2018, a 15‑year low. London still has no further clarity on the allocation of the 20,000 officers promised nationally. I will continue to make the case for 6,000 officers. The impact of the pandemic is forecast to cost the MPS up to £50million and so I have called on the Home Secretary to provide urgent support to protect our police from a new era of austerity. I am proud of my record on keeping our city safe, but it is vital that Government reverses its damaging cuts for good.

Steve O’Connell: Thank you very much, Mr Mayor. First of all, I would like to echo colleagues’ comments about thanking our officers for all the work that they have done over the previous months in very difficult circumstances, and particularly thank them for the work against violence in these recent months. Commissioner, thank you, through yourself, for that.
It is timely now, really, to reflect on your record, Mr Mayor, over four years. This is not a reflection on the Commissioner’s two years. That is not my noises coming out. Mr Mayor, listening to what you have to say, I have to say I do not necessarily recognise some of those figures, and the figures I get are coming from the MPS Dashboard.
If we put that to one side, your predecessor, Mr Mayor, left office with far lower crime levels than he found at the beginning. Are you saying that you are on course to do the same?

Sadiq Khan: There are a number of ways to answer that question. The first thing is my predecessor left City Hall with a decline in police officer numbers. As I said, we have lost 21,000 officers across the country, thousands in London, and I would remind you that he left me with a legacy of 76 police stations being closed, 65% of community officers being cut, and 30% of our police staff being cut. Not a great legacy.
The good news is, as the Commissioner referred to earlier on and I referred to just now, we are seeing a huge reduction in the key metrics that concern Londoners: violent crime going down; violence with injury going down; in those above 25, knife crime with injury going down; gun crime going down; and burglary going down. No complacency on our part but we are seeing progress made, being both tough on crime around the enforcement side and tough on the causes as well, by reinvesting in the youth services that have been starved of investment over the last 10 years.

Steve O’Connell: Thank you for that. I will take that as a response that is kind of ‘no’ in response to my question about leaving it lower when and if you leave this term as opposed to beginning. I have figures from the Dashboard. We do not want to exchange too much on a whole range of figures but I am taking, importantly, pre‑COVID figures because that is a fairer ‑ fair on you and fair on Londoners ‑ reflection of your record. I have the rate going up by a quarter, robbery three quarters, and burglary ‑ particularly important, neighbourhood crime ‑ going up by something like a third, which is from the beginning of your term to pre‑COVID. I am not sure that I recognise all those figures.
If I may, I would like to turn to the issue about funding because you mentioned at the beginning, in your words, “a decade of austerity”, and of course that decade included your predecessor. In fairness, your predecessor did reduce crime. How do you answer that? Your predecessor left crime figures lower than yourself and he faced the same cuts. How do you answer that?

Sadiq Khan: You are in danger, Steve, of using the fantasy figures that your mayoral candidate uses. Up until the Olympics‑‑

Steve O’Connell: Met Dashboard.

Sadiq Khan: Up until the [2012] Olympics, the Government, rightly, was ensuring that police officer numbers did not drop in London. In 2010 ‑ I use May2010 for obvious reasons ‑ London had 33,260 officers. If you want to make a note, Steve, 33,260. When you compare the police officers in London versus the population in London in May 2010, it was 4.1 officers per 1,000. Those are the truthful figures, the accurate figures. Let us fast‑forward to the consequences of Government cuts. London’s population is going up; police officer numbers are going down. That leads to a situation where officer numbers fall to 29,924, below 30,000 for the first time since 2003. The police officer number per 1,000 is 3.3. Not unsurprisingly, those cuts have consequences.
At the same time, though, as police officer numbers are going down, we have youth services decimated, youth clubs closing down, youth workers out of a job, young people without constructive things to do, and not surprisingly, crime went up. Serious youth violence started going up in 2012, four years before I became Mayor. Violence started going up in 2014, two years before I became Mayor. I am afraid the real facts do not fit with the political narrative, but they are what they are.

Policing Action Plan

Siân Berry: What difference will your new action plan for transparency, accountability and trust in policing make and how will you measure its impact?

Sadiq Khan: Sure. I can take it, Commissioner, if you want me to. Thank you. There is no doubt in my mind that the MPS has made significant and positive steps since the tragic murder of StephenLawrence and the subsequent public inquiry. Today the MPS is more representative, more transparent and more accountable than at any time in its history, and the MPS does do a remarkable job keeping our city safe. It is crucial that the police have confidence themselves to use the powers they have to bear down on violent crime, but also crucial that the police have the trust and confidence of all black Londoners, and it is clear that more needs to be done to achieve this.
That is why we have published the Action Plan. It is to address the community concerns about the disproportionate use of police powers on black Londoners and to improve transparency, accountability, trust and confidence. As I said in answer to a previous question, the plan seeks to change the way the community is involved in recruitment, in training and in scrutiny of the police. There is additional money, £1.7million, towards investing in community involvement, which I know Sophie discussed with you yesterday.
There are a number of ways we are going to measure success. Increasing public confidence is really important to allow greater transparency and accountability. You will be aware of the metrics that already exist to do that. SophieLinden will be co‑chairing a board alongside an independent co‑chair, bringing in community voices and expertise. The Public Attitude Survey of MOPAC will be really important. We want to see, Siân, increased confidence in the police and a reduction in concerns there are around disproportionality. This is a partnership piece of work between the police, City Hall and the diverse communities of London, and I mean by that, of course, the black communities in London.

Siân Berry: OK. Thank you, Mr Mayor. If I could stick with you for a moment, just to go back to the goals and measurement question, about goals: I think you will agree with me that improved perceptions are not the same as improved outcomes and that increased confidence is not the same thing as enhanced respect for human rights on the ground or reduced disproportionality.
Although there is a lot that is positive in this Action Plan in terms of lots of planned actions ‑ there is so much that is good in here ‑ there are a few warning signs in it. For example, with the Equality Impact Assessment, the strategic outcomes are, first, improved perceptions, and second, more proportionate police tactics. I am not sure that is the right order. Then where it talks about the Disproportionality Scrutiny Group, which you mentioned will be convened, it says it will be “to increase confidence that these powers are being used fairly and proportionately”. I think we mainly all agree now that there is not proportionality currently and that does need to be fixed.
Are you confident that the goals you have set are the right ones and in the right priority order, in terms of outcomes and impacts?

Sadiq Khan: Yes.

Siân Berry: In terms of measurement, there are a lot of actions planned and things will emerge from those actions, and the progress monitoring of this plan seems to be mainly in terms of keeping an eye on the completion of the actions and the progress of the actions. You will be reporting back on that quarterly. I think that is what it says. That is good, but it also is not the same as assessing the achievement of the goals of reduced disproportionality.
Are you going to be producing new key performance indicators (KPIs) to go with this? It is implied by the report this will wait for the next Mayor’s new Police and Crime Plan.

Sadiq Khan: Yes. We have set out in the Action Plan 42 actions. The Commissioner on day one already ticked off one of them, which is to change the rules around police officers’ residency. We have deliberately set out Action Plans which can be actioned sooner rather than later, rather than waiting until the end and somebody marking our homework. The Police and Crime Plan clearly has a particular legal framework, which is why that is a peg we have used. The important thing is that rather than redrafting an Action Plan by committee, the Action Plan was the fruit of a lot of work with communities, the police service and City Hall. That is why we are quite keen to avoid the additional expense in adding new metrics when there already exist metrics which provide quite a good benchmark. It means we can compare apples with apples.

Siân Berry: OK, that is useful to know. Yes, when we do make a new Mayor’s Police and Crime Plan, we can change those metrics. I hope the Disproportionality Scrutiny Group will be producing goals that are measurable outcomes as well.

Keeping Londoners safe during the pandemic

Unmesh Desai: How have you had to work differently to keep Londoners safe during the pandemic, and what are the biggest challenges you face as we move into next year?

Sadiq Khan: The COVID-19 pandemic has created unprecedented challenges for all of us. For the MPS, this has meant new regulations and powers to reduce the spread of the virus and keep London safe, alongside increases in public order events and a return to pre-lockdown demand levels.
At City Hall we have been working hard to support the MPS throughout this time. My Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime, SophieLinden, is working with our partners including service providers, local councils, community groups and charities to ensure key services that the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime (MOPAC) funds continue to be provided.
MOPAC has also been instrumental in getting finance out to key frontline community and voluntary organisations via the London Community Response Fund. We have invested an additional £1.5million to provide safe accommodation and support to victims of domestic abuse and an additional £700,000 to build on the success of the £3million Rescue and Response programme, which supports young Londoners exploited through county lines. Ensuring young people receive the support needed as we move into the next year is going to be critical. London’s VRU is funding mentoring support for disadvantaged young people who attend London’s Pupil Referral Units.
Unfortunately, Chair, COVID 19 has brought our court system to the point of crisis, with almost a quarter of total outstanding cases across England and Wales being in Crown Courts. I know the Commissioner is as concerned about this as I am. I have written to the Lord Chancellor to urge him to act now to prevent our already creaking justice system from collapsing, putting the safety of Londoners at risk.

Unmesh Desai: Commissioner, on the operational side, would you like to say something?

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): Thank you. I will just say, as well as the changed legislation, the changed demand profile, having to change the ways in which we engage with people, including of course young people, working in very close partnerships with the Strategic Coordinating Group across London for COVID but also locally working against COVID and in very challenging circumstances for the criminal justice system, it is worth noting that we have had to provide, like everybody, a COVID-secure service as much as we can. That has meant adapting hugely the way our custody suites have worked but we have not reduced the number of the people we have arrested over this time period. In fact, overall we have probably increased them slightly.
My officers have faced not knowing as they go into a house whether someone has COVID. They have been dealing with the deceased people, including, sadly, to support families where somebody has died of COVID. They have also, like everybody, had to work remotely often where they can. I am very pleased to say that we have had considerable focus in the last 18 months on our digital working and so, even though we will work at what we call ‘official sensitive’ and indeed sometimes at ‘secret’, we are able to work remotely. It has been a very different year for us in terms of the way we work.

Armistice Day 2020

Peter Whittle: What has been the outcome of the Metropolitan Police's review into the security failure at the Cenotaph in Whitehall on Armistice Day (11 November 2020), when activists from Extinction Rebellion hijacked the event?

Peter Whittle: Good afternoon, Commissioner. I asked you when we last met in one of these meetings - and indeed since then have followed up with the Mayor - about the review you were carrying out with regard to the Cenotaph incident when there was a protest by Extinction Rebellion. You said you would be looking into it. Can you tell me what the results have been?

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): Yes, we met on the afternoon of 11November [2020]. This incident had happened that morning and so I was still in the process of reviewing it.
The first thing I would say is that the banner that was placed there and the incident itself, I - in common with many other people across the country - regard as not only inappropriate, as I said on the day, but a deeply offensive thing to do on that important day, 100 years on, such an important day.
In terms of what happened, I can tell you that we had no intelligence whatsoever that this was going to happen. From the closed-circuit television (CCTV), which I have looked at myself, we can see that a very small number of people arrived at the base of the Cenotaph, unfurled the banner and placed the wreath without causing any damage to anything else at 8.01am. At that point they were not in the line of sight of any officers in the street. Officers who were policing the operation to support the ceremony at the Cenotaph later that morning were not due to arrive until between 8.30am and 9.00am. They were in fact out on Horse Guards at that point having a briefing. Officers were alerted and they made their way immediately. They arrived at 8.08am. I know that the media has said it took 30 minutes for the officers to arrive. It did not. They were there by 8.08am and they removed the article by 8.12am. Of course by the time they arrived the people had left.
On the day, the officers who responded formed the view that this did not amount to any crime and that was a perfectly respectable view for them to take. We have looked at that again. It is clear there was no breach by these people of the COVID regulations nor, as was suggested by some, would it breach public decency. I can tell you, sir, that we are still in a seeking a further piece of advice from the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) about section5 of the Public Order Act but I would have to say the bar there is pretty high. Overall, in my view, there was no failure by any individual officer in that.
What we are now doing - I imagine you will be interested - is we have increased patrols in the area. We are seeking to improve the camera coverage that there is around the Cenotaph even further. Of course we will look at future important days in the calendar or similar operations with a careful eye to see what is an appropriate set of time for the officers to be ground assigned, as we call it, deployed.
Most crucially, given that of course this is an open monument, which is not a place people would expect to have boarded up, for example, or to have enormous numbers of officers around it, we are working with our partners who own the Cenotaph and of course those who make use of it - the British Legion and others - in order to see how we can reduce the risk further of inappropriate or offensive things happening in the future.

Peter Whittle: Thank you very much for that, Commissioner. When we spoke last you said that they were there for about 20 minutes and so that has been revised?

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): The media said 30.

Peter Whittle: You said 20.

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): I looked at the CCTV myself. I can tell you that the people were there for just a very short period of time and my people arrived seven minutes after they first got there.

Peter Whittle: They were there for about 20 minutes.

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): No, they were not there for about 20 minutes.

Peter Whittle: Look, the fact is that, as you say, it was extremely offensive to many people, but my main regard as well is that it was an extraordinary security risk. When you say that there was no intelligence - I am around that way a lot - how did they actually get so near to the Cenotaph to be able to move their stuff out and then stay there unchallenged? The reason I want to ask you this again, Commissioner, is because it is extremely important to millions of people. The Cenotaph is not just a London monument. It is a British monument.
Just a couple of weeks later and indeed a couple of hundred yards away from the Cenotaph, a peaceful protester, a 72-year-old woman was bundled into the back of a police van. She was protesting outside Parliament, perfectly peacefully. Four policemen got to her and put her in the back of the van. It caused outrage from a passing MP, who then brought it up in the House of Commons, quite rightly. This was extraordinary. This was in the same vicinity. You managed somehow to jump on those people very quickly - indeed, in this case, a 72-year-old woman - and yet somehow or other Extinction Rebellion manages to be able to stay there for a matter of minutes up the road. Can you not see how people now think that you do preside over two-tier policing?

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): I do not preside over two-tier policing. We are completely impartial. We deal with the circumstances that we have in front of us and we deal with our understanding of what the intelligence is and what the likely risk of any type of occurrence might be.
These events, of course, as you say, although in a geographically similar place that you are talking about, were on different days. I need to be careful about the second one because of course people have been charged and that was an unlawful protest. We had gone to police that event in order to persuade people not to protest, which at the time was unlawful, and to disperse. They did not do so. I need to be careful how much further I go, but we were doing our policing job.
In terms of the Cenotaph, I have explained. One of the suggestions at the time was that police officers were standing and watching. My point is there were no police officers in the immediate area at the time. They were not in the line of sight of any officers. I go there as much as you do, possibly more. We police that area with a lot of presence, but they are patrolling officers in the main who are moving around. There are a whole range of sites that are of interest to people and also some places which contain of course people - like in Parliament - who need a huge amount of personal protection. We police primarily on the streets with patrols. I cannot say anything other than, at that point, there was not a patrol looking at it. What I can say is, as soon as we were alerted, we were there very quickly. By that time, the people had gone.
You asked me how they got there. They came out of the Tube station. I have not followed that bit of CCTV but that is what I am told. They came out of the Tube station. They came down a tiny bit of Whitehall. They stood there looking completely like any other citizen and then walked across to the Cenotaph. Many people were walking up to the Cenotaph at the time. There were lots of visitors to the Cenotaph. When they got there, they unfurled their banner. That is how it happened.

Peter Whittle: I know, Commissioner, and you have been through that before. You say you cannot talk because people have been charged or whatever on this second incident I am talking about, but maybe let me give you a bit of context. Extinction Rebellion earlier this year, even during this COVID period, was allowed to bring central London pretty much to a halt. This happened again and yet, as I said, a 72-year-old woman just protesting on her own was manhandled and basically spreadeagled and put into a police van like that. Frankly, this does not look like impartial policing. It seems that there are certain protests and certain causes which somehow you put a favourable eye on, whether it is Extinction Rebellion or Black Lives Matter, and yet when it comes to other forms of protest you are extremely, shall we say, keen to keep the peace.

Navin Shah: Very briefly, please.

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): I have said to you before that my officers, I believe, are as experienced as anyone in the world and as professional as anyone in the world, probably more so. One thing they absolutely, definitely are is completely impartial. They deal with the circumstances in front of them. We have arrested hundreds of Extinction Rebellion protesters over the last
18 months, hundreds and hundreds, and they have been charged and they have gone to court. We have to deal with what is in front of us and what is possible and what is appropriate in all the circumstances. Under normal circumstances, we take people’s rights to assemble, to express themselves, to protest and all those things extremely seriously. We also have to balance those rights with other people’s rights to go about their lawful business. That is the balancing act that officers are always doing. During these regulations - which, by the way, as you know, have changed countless times in the last six months - the officers have had to be policing not just the normal kind of way in which you would think about a protest but also the health regulations.

Navin Shah: Sorry, Commissioner. We are out of time with this question.

Dame Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): OK. Thank you.